Sponsored by
IRENE (International Restructuring Education Network Europe)
and Schone Kleren Campagne (Belgium/Flanders)
Maggie Burns, chaired the meeting

Report prepared by Nina Ascoly

Summary of Proceedings

INTRODUCTION

Ineke Zeldenrust (CCC Amsterdam) briefly outlined where we're at in terms of the debate on independent monitoring. Distinguished different steps:

1. Discussion on codes of conduct: Lots of discussion on this. Companies can do it alone or jointly with others--can have core ILO standards
2. Implementation: What we've heard is that in many cases there isn't any implementation.Translation of code, compare with others
3. External monitoring:Companies like NIKE are at that level, take an accountant or quality control firm (ex. SGS) or hire an NGO (or create one) to do this.
4. Independent monitoring or verification: At the moment this is the last stage we can envisage. We don't have as much clarity on what we want this to include (as we do with codes for example).

We've done monitoring on some level ourselves to prove that the implementation hasn't been done (as evidenced by the testimony at the forum)

Pilot projects: we need to play a role there, I think, the question is what role?

Pilot projects at this point are:
1. Auchan/France
2. Ethical Trade Initiative (ETI)/UK
3. Dutch Fair Trade Charter (FTC)
4. Swedish Foundation
5. Council on Economic Priorities (CEP) -- Social Accountability (SA) 8000
6. Apparal Industry Partnership (AIP)/US -- maybe not so much a pilot project, but they're talking about these issues

About the FTC in Netherlands:

• involves Dutch companies
• * groups negotiating: FNV, CCC-NL, CNV, producer federation, middle-sized retailer federation

Where are we now?

• There should be a foundation: union, NGO, producer, retailer
• Should be a contract between the company and the foundation specifying how the monitoring should be done
• There should be certified monitors (organizations or companies)
• There should be a complaints procedure directly back to the foundation

Reaction/Clarification:
Peter Custers (Bangladesh People's Solidarity Centre/ CCC Amsterdam):
I want to raise the issue of the changing context in which we operate as the CCC. In the early 90s we immediately raised the issue of monitoring, as we move forward and become a powerful campaign the power of government is decreasing, power MNCs increasing, as we move forward might we not think of more ways of experimenting good to try out models but alongside implementation of these types of monitoring, why not try another monitoring body that does not include the company: perhaps it would help us keep up the pressure in the sector
another issue: a sector-wide code (referred to the international babyfood code ) approve such a code

Ineke Zeldenrust: I feel that the actual watchdog role is the role that we have been playing for the past 10 years as the CCC, for me it's clear that as campaigns that's what we will also do

Janneke van Eijk (CCC/A'dam): The campaign will not cease to exist because we have a foundation

Medea Benjamin (Global Exchange, USA) : re: CCC--I'm interested to hear feedback on inside/outside relationships, how to play your watchdog role once you're in negotiations.
w/companies, in some cases our old allies (once in negotiations) are sworn to secrecy, changes relationship/communications

Kristina Bjorling (CCC/Sweden): We started Sept.1997, we started even earlier to engage in contact with companies, they were eager to work with us. We never felt this big need to make lots of public campaigns as in other countries to create consumer pressure. They are also prepared to go into independent monitoring. We feel yes we need the campaign, but need to separate the campaign from monitoring. We are setting up foundation. The company will never sit down with the campaign, if they give a list of suppliers, the issue of confidentiality, they will never accept for this info to go directly to the campaign or the media.We need to be separate--we'll need both. It's a situation where you play double roles, but it's quite difficult.

Ingeborg Wick (CCC/Germany): This most important thing is to create pressure, to raise consciousness, if companies are ready very early to talk there's a certain idea in their mind, our experience in Germany tells us it's very important to have this consciousness in the public first, if we separate too easily we fall prey to these companies who use codes as public relations. Our main aim should be to create a broad-based awareness, north and south

Ineke Zeldenrust: To put into realistic perspective we've been sitting around the table since 1993, at the same time we've built up a very effective campaign.There are still so many companies left to campaign around. I think we can solve the inside, outside problem, it's workable, but I think the fundamental issue is Amin's (see below)--local level.

Janneke van Eijk: Issues raised re: European campaigning:
In the fall we might have a meeting to discuss this, we have to rethink where we're going, we're achieving some of our aims, I propose that all these issues (inside/outside) that we discuss in the collective preparation and in October. We're here to talk about local level NGO/union relationships in the South

PART I: CHALLENGES & QUESTIONS REGARDING INDEPENDENT MONITORING

Serapina Cha Mi-kyung (People's Solidarity for Participatory Democracy (PSPD), Korea)
First participated in the CCC in 1996. Raised the following questions/observations:

Euro level CCC positive influence, concern on labour/human rights at the same time people ask what can we do? Impressive to maintain campaign.

• Fear that (we?) miss the influence from people from the south
• Regarding network on independent monitoring: why is it very hard for trade unions to join the monitoring process? Trade unions have a lot of internal methods to defend workers rights,
  trade union is already involved. Need to take time to discuss. If we're involved we need to share at the local level, doesn't matter if they know a lot about the campaign or not. Campaigns on local level should develop educational (materials) that way we can say who is the real enemy in the south? Without this kind of discussion it's very difficult to increase our capacity on the issue of independent monitoring.
• For the public campaign, we share the technical problems of the campaigns in the north
  in the south the campaign still has initiatives, not quite united to put pressure on MNCs, tactics on public campaigns, not enough to maintain education. Northern NGOs/trade unions should share technical info--not just research on working conditions.
• In 1996 campaign w/five organizations. Strong alliance between NGOs and trade unions.In our experience economical issues should be addressed by trade unions.Government in negotiations, ASEM focus on trade, not human rights, on this level we need to apply pressure, this is not a common thing. Need to present an alternative voice (NGOs/trade unions) to pressure government. I'm not a trade unionist, I work in an NGO, but without a strong cooperation...union has the legal negotiation power in the south. NGOs should have a place to work together with unions.

International trade union role: compared to 1996 the level of participation is positive, most of the issues are shared with the trade union leaders at the top level, they have to come down to the ground--what sort of education should we provide at the local level? what sort of strategy?
share one experience, we got a letter from trade unions, concerned about workers employed in Romania, KCP--trade union in South Korea, second is Korean metal union, sat down and talked, sent a letter to International mine workers federation to have a negotiation. Will send a rep. from trade union and NGOs to investigate working conditions, a strong strategy, unifies the voice of the NGOs and trade unions. Still though we couldn't get any response from the IMF, the union is not thinking how their responsibility should go on the ground, not just sending a letter, I think the international trade unions together should address what their responsibilities and roles are at the local level. This will help us in developing a monitoring system.

(see also her paper "Independent Mnitoring for Human Rights!" circulated at the seminar which includes a case study on monitoring Korean companies and an action plan and long-term goals toward solidarity between trade unions and NGOS)

Esther de Haan (CCC/A'dam): What about role of NGOs in Korean context?

Mi-kyung: Trade unions are saying "you go first." On the level of the strategy of the campaign we have meetings w/company union, national union, etc. They have power to put on industry.
We have different strategy based on the industrial sector. We're discussing what the different roles are.Maybe trade unions should do the wider education, to open the eyes of their members.Since we participated in the CCC we feel we should work with the trade unions, even if it's close to the government. At this time the trade unions have a big dilemma.

Regarding Trade Unions:

Medea Benjamin (Global Exchange, USA): In the majority of places where garments are being produced strong independent trade unions are the exception, usually weak, corrupt--maybe Emelia can respond.

Willy Wagenmans (FNV/Netherlands): I know how hard it is to strengthen the role of trade unions, yes have to distinguish contexts--South Korea is different from South Africa.
We have been involved in the Netherlands FTC negotiations for the past four years, very difficult to reach consensus w/companies, our main objective is to make companies take
responsibility for their activities. That is basic. I think that we've made some progress in the past few years. Key issue is are they sincere & authentic, or is it just public relations?
Part of a strategy to increase the quality performance of a company. We should make a structure that's helpful in carrying out this process. If it's only from north to south (unilateral) something is wrong.
Role of NGOs is different from country to country, the same applies to trade unions. I speak frankly because this is reality, and this complicates our work. The point is how to involve the unions? We have tried to engage in training/educational programs in developing countries.
We're trying to link different programs that the NGOs are involved in (informational, etc.). Difficult, we have to start from scratch. Many don't know about ILO standards, etc. have to start at a very basic level.

Amirul Haque Amin (NGWF, Bangladesh): Question of trade unions in south and relationship to campaigns. In Bangladesh in the garment sector the position of the unions is quite weak, whatever issues we raise the priority has to be the right to participate in trade unions. The reality is that our organization is weak in recruiting members, our bargaining capacity is also weak. Relationships between trade unions and NGOs: the reality is that there's quite a distance.NGOs take a target group and try to raise money, if it fails they step back
Trade unions have a different position, once they recruit members they can't retreat.We have more headaches than the NGOs have. Question re independent monitoring: we have to know that in all the producer countries if the network of the Clean Clothes Campaign has been made, w/out that coordination the suppliers won't implement code, where the network hasn't been built they won't be pressured, rather than achieving improvements, buyers will just shift their operations, the end result is that all the pressure will come back on us who are organizing the workers, we will be accused of anti-state activities, before building an independent monitoring body we have to rethink these basic issues.

Participant from Free Univ. of Berlin: The difficulty of coalitions between NGOs/trade unions.
U.S. union and Honduran union --raised hell, but didn't involve the Honduran local NGOs, Central American unions don't trust U.S. unions to start with, for good reason. Unions from industrialized countries have to be more open and involve local unions

Constraints on local groups:

Vivian Liu (AMRC, Hong Kong): The present situation in Hong Kong regarding trade union's and NGOs--still few people interested: the Hong Kong Industrial Committee and China Labour Bulletin really only concerned w/labour issues in China.
We are introducing the idea of independent monitoring. No clear feedback yet. The concern is what will be the contents of the independent monitoring. Concerned that because they have a relationship with workers in China if they (the organisation) joins the monitoring what will workers think, will be seen as working w/the companies. Concern within AMRC that we have to keep a balance among our projects,because we are regional, concerned w/entire Asia/Pacific.

Cia Chong Guo (China Labour Bulletin/Paris): I used to be very idealistic when young, now changed.Shouldn't be naive about company adopted a code of conduct. The only way we are sure to get the implementation of a code of conduct verified is if we involve the interest of the enterprise. We have to be strong, have practical/technical information. In the case of China, there is no institution that works by itself.

This is how we could build a system of verification: but more important there needs to be competent people doing this work of verification. If there are no people who's pro task is to control verif. these institutions can't function properly. For ex. if you sent people to control a company in China, China is very good at presenting things. The workers are afraid of what happens. We need people on the spot who know the culture of the country and the company, w/a technical background. If someone goes to control the list of the workers interviewed must not be known by the company. So the interviewer must be able to decide on their own who they pick to interview, the company should not be the one to select. We have to be aware of these details.

Earlier we talked about educating the workers about their rights, but in China it's not enough. in China if you give this information most workers won't be interested, a lot of them know their rights, if the workers know that there is a chance of their rights being applied they might be interested. There should be an independent institution to oversee the monitoring, important that they have technical information, professional interviewers/detectives trained and informed about the country only will be able to find things in the workplaces in China. Then we will be able to mobilize the public opinion, otherwise people not interested.

Aloysius Arockiam (Save/India): My feeling is that NGOs play a greater role in (implementing) codes of conduct. Trade unions energetic, limitations also.NGOs more like the instigators, educators. It may be ideal to train NGOs more on these issues. My experience has been that corporations they always need external pressure, in the case of C&A, they are very silent and never disclose their business dealings, began to say something after journalist investigates.
In a local NGO like ours SAVE, we work in a broader network, got in touch w/campaigns like CCC. We began to adopt a strategy of demanding the code of conduct. Our experience started in 1997. They will withdraw if we say we want to form a committee on child labor, set up a parallel NGOs, they want to present themselves as a messiah, in reality they don't want to see real change in the situation of workers.

No proper mechanism exists to monitor the local industry. Group of industries and NGOs formed a labeling system, label for garments that are produced in places that have independent monitoring. Labeling or certificate system--not sure--labeling is very laborious. We need external pressure and local well-trained monitors. Think the role of NGOs is more effective.

Emelia Yanti Mala Siahaan (Garment Workers Association/Indonesia): I work in an NGO for only three years, short period of experience. We have a trade union in Indonesia, but it's very close to the government, if you try to build up an independent trade union it's generally not allowed. The official trade union does not speak for the workers, there are some other trade unions in some other regions, but if they try to speak for the rights of the workers the government doesn't hear these voices and stops these organizations. there was a strike of factory workers a few years ago, but government said that it was not the real voice of the workers that there was the influence of other people. If workers get pressure from factory owners and want to strike the owners inform the government, government takes sanctions on workers/organizers. Always say that the agitators are not working on behalf of the workers.

Based on this experience with the government and trade unions, we formed our own organization, the association of garment factory workers. We work outside the factories, but have contact w/the workers. There is also the organization of the shoe factory workers, There is government intimidation of both our organizations. If a member of our associations speaks too loudly in a factory, informing workers of their rights, they will be fired or punished.
On the one side our government always told us that we have rights and that education is important for all the people--but if anyone demands these things there is repression. Maybe you heard of the case of Masina (?) she got bad info on the factory, informed the workers, she was murdered a few years ago.

The government always works in favor of the company, the recent financial crisis is used by the government and the cos. to exploit the workers (longer hours and less pay)--co. say yes you must do this to help out our government, government at the same time says yes, this situation is due to the international financial crisis.

Before we built our organization, and had connection w/other international organizations, we worked in the factories, we thought our salaries were OK, we thought it was OK to live with this, after we saw that companies like Marks and Spencers sell the products for a very high price, we feel exploited. It's very difficult for us to see this gap. This injustice. We always are under the pressure of the companies, and we can't understand why we have to produce things at a very cheap price when we see these prices in Europe. We would have to work for months without food to afford the products we produce. The companies always tell us the product we make is very bad, that the quality is low so that they can't pay us a good price. But we never have the experience that they send back the products to us, from Marks & Spencers and Levi's.
With my experience we see there is no freedom of organization. In our association we try to fight for the right of the factory workers. It helps us to understand what you are doing for us.

Setting up local monitoring networks:
Understanding the local organization, context is very important. HOW to build up local networks -- What needs to be in place to set up such networks? (Maggie Burns)

Medea Benjamin: It becomes difficult for us when we're campaigning that we ask that local groups be involved in monitoring, and then local groups, such as AMRC, don't want to be monitors. We're in the situation that we're calling on companies to use local monitors that don't exist. Also in the case of Indonesia there's Emelia's group and the shoe association that seem to be rivals. Who do you work with?

Phil Wells (ETI/UK): It's easier to make contact w/the international jet set groups, not the groups in touch with the local groups. Same thing exists in the north. Looking for south coordination.

Yannick Etienne (Batay OuvriyT/Haiti): It is important for northern organizations to understand different parameters in the south. Regarding having a monitoring groups working in the south, you have to understand the cultural/political situ in a country. Especially in a country w/a very strong anti-imperialist feeling any group that has contact w/foreign groups is suspicious. You have to be credible. That credibility is derived from different sources. in a country w/ a class system. If I go to a very poor neighborhood and I wear my glasses I'm considered a person from a very high level. I need my glasses to see. I don't know if you can understand how difficult it is in that situation.

Foreigners and large corporations-- If you take money there is no way you'll be credible. You don't want anything international, foreign involved. The monitoring team has to be independent but with no money from the companies.

Regarding NGOs -- The trend to have NGOs in underdeveloped countries. They are the intermediaries of the governments of the imperialist countries, they have their agendas. (People) may be illiterate but they know this is foreign and they don't want that. The NGOs in Latin America have been against the popular sentiment. The relationship is distant, one that the people cannot trust. It's based on a mentality of assistance. You're afraid that if you go to the NGOs place they're going to report you to the companies. I know that there are NGOs that have a good relationship w/ the local people. But they're working on a humanitarian basis. When we're talking about worker's rights that's a political issue. A different issue. Having NGOs w/in a monitoring team--it has to be something that requires a lot of research, the NGO has to have proven themselves.

PART II: PRESENTATION OF THREE PILOT PROGRAMS:

1. Auchan/Martial Cozette (CFEI/France):
(CFEI?) leads this experience, part of the French CCC.
What we want to find from this experience is to see what could be a method to conduct independent monitoring. During this experience we also stay in touch with Carrefour,
because we know that when Auchan makes a step their competitor, Carrefour will follow a similar path.

A few months ago Auchan adopted a code of conduct that we consider a good code of
conduct. It includes freedom of association, no forced labour, ILO standards, they also
accept the idea of independent monitoring to control the implementation of the code of conduct. Question is how to do this. First step is to set up internal monitoring, because we know that if the people aren't concerned with the code of conduct.We've agreed that as part of this first step we'll participate in trainings to explain the position of the collective, vis-a-vis the code of conduct. We would like to invite people from southern countries eventually, because they (those in the companies) must know about the conditions.

Next step is the implementation of independent monitoring.We signed a six-point letter of intention w/Auchan. Several goals:
* Try to define a social label w/in five years--they're very interested in markets, but we need to explain that people (consumers) are more and more interested in social conditions.
* Communications also very important. We want to communicate this experience, but we want to do it together. If a message is sent that isn't reality, that's damaging.
* What is our method--we don't really know yet.
* Money important. We think Auchan has to pay an external company to do the monitoring
and the collective has to control the external company.
* We can't go everywhere they do, in many cases we'll just be looking at reports. We'll have to know if the content of the report is on the ground. We'll have to know how to summarize this information to be able to communicate it to the NGOs, trade unions, etc.
* Our problem now is how to make a theoretical scheme concrete. Now until December, in Dec. we hope to have the monitoring going.
* Madagascar and Vietnam are the two countries selected.

2. Ethical Trade Initiative/ Phil Wells (UK):
UK-based, cooperation between NGOs, trade unions and companies. Invited companies over past 6-9 months. have about 15 companies involved. Most participation is from food retailers, then garments, others mixed. ETI just becoming a legal entity, will be controlled by a board that is composed of members of those three groups. Some companies are generally motivated by concerns over media exposure, also as individuals they are reacting to conditions they don't agree with. Our problems: "how to" problems. Our initiative is a learning initiative, not an intended to set up an institution.Easy for us in the short-term, because we don't have to think about which companies to endorse, etc.

What we're doing: Alliance building based on several principles: trust (NGO-trade unions-companies); codes of conduct have to be based on ILO conventions; companies have to accept independent monitoring; companies have to be committed to improving standards; companies have to be committed to not "cut and run" (i.e. have to stay w/their suppliers); has to be based on disclosure (contrast w/ idea Sweden of confidentiality).

Have a three-year mandate: came together in the first place because coordination needed
(various NGOs involved in negotiations, several codes, etc.) committed to finding a common approach.What we need to explore:
* technology to monitor
* capacity to monitor
* endorsing companies vs. market pressure--if we move too quickly then we get into a situation where we might be endorsing the wrong companies, endorsing them for doing what appears to be the right thing (ex. sacking child workers)

Pilot studies: We'll be doing a few over the next few years, to give southern groups practical experience. The other part of our learning is from other people's work.We need to learn what a good pilot study is, then can share that w/CEP, CCC.

Questions that a pilot should answer:
* how can co. improve labour standards among their suppliers?
* how can the impact of implementation of codes on the lives of workers and the local community be assessed?
* how can we ensure that codes of conduct don't have a negative impact on the wider community?

Different models: compliance w/ standards; sector-side approach,use of external monitoring people, using internal people. Various models we'll be using and at the end of the three years we hope to be able to recommend which models are best.

Format of the pilots:
1st stage: baseline survey --independent consultancy by the pilot evaluation team
2nd stage: inspection and verification visits undertaken by the companies or their agents monitoring system
3rd stage: analysis and follow-up action by the company, according to the model
4th: actions as appropriate by the supplier
5th: follow-up survey and analysis by the pilot evaluation team

Key challenges:
* Building trust -- companies want to know how do I talk to you w/o becoming the next enemy. Companies don't trust each other.
* Capacity building-- there's no way local groups will be able to do monitoring. I've
visited unions that don't' have a fax and don't have a motor bike to get around on. No way they can take on the job.

3. The Gap Monitoring Pilot / Medea Benjamin (US):
Progressive part of catholic church, human rights activists involved in war situation for 10 plus years. First time in the history of the FTZ in El Salvador, workers reinstated because of the
monitoring, the conditions actually improved. Head of factory, an ex-military guy, was replaced. Workers able to get to bathroom. Like a war zone in the FTZ. Guarded. Via this project able to breakthrough that and open it up a little bit to civil society.

On the other hand, some negatives. Independent unions kicked out, and a company union set up. So the workers were reinstated in a hostile situation. The monitors were put in a hostile situation. No strong independent union, weak and also the strong company union, so
this is not an example of independent monitoring creating strong independent unions. Also on negative side: The Gap got so much so much good publicity for this work in the one factory only that it demobilized the campaign.

Summary (Maggie Burns)
Relationship between trade unions and NGOs -- discussed that wherever you are this is different. Yellow trade unions and yellow NGOs. Criteria for determining which are yellow.
* need to have an understanding of the local context (ex. Haiti &Indonesia).
* have to have that for effective monitoring
* have to have a lot of practical and technical knowledge
Question was raised about taking money from companies. Undermines credibility.
Keeping pressure on companies.
Continuing to do the research that allows you to keep the pressure on.
What brings credibility to a monitoring system. We'll try to reach consensus on that. It's clear that the codes of conduct thing is going ahead. What we're interested in is worker rights. So the question is how can monitoring complement that.

PART III -- STRATEGIES AND ROLES OF DIFFERENT ACTORS

Dwight Justice (ICFTU): Codes of conduct issue, two locuses of responsibility
1. Government to protect rights of citizens/subjects--pressures of globalization mean governments don't live up to their responsibilities, you might say codes of conduct come about because of international competition and the ability of companies to influence labor practices. They're in a position to make labour standards better or worse.
2. International business

The ETI couched in the various responsibilities of stakeholders.Businesses in ETI also said we also have responsibilities. Not sure that we're talking about the same things. When we talk about codes we're talking about company responsibilities. You need to distinguish between the different functions of monitoring, verification & accreditation.

* Monitoring: An ongoing process.I don't know what the ability is of NGOs and trade unions to do that sort of function. Don't think that every result (in exs.) of this is satisfactory
* Verification: A way of testing the monitoring, to make sure the monitoring is going on at certain standards.
* Accreditation: Holding monitors and verifiers to certain standards.Who's responsible for training managers and supervisors? Unless you get some of the underlying standards and procedures worked out, won't be credible and you might do more harm than good.

Monitoring: a skill that might already exist. Quality control.Right now two different existing bodies have experience on this: government labor inspectors and trade unions--monitor collective agreements.If you don't involve the people that have the expertise then it's
unlikely that you'll come up with anything credible. I think this meeting is based on a model where NGOs will conduct monitoring. If that's so it's still got to an underlying system of standards, verification standards. I'm not so totally opposed to that given the nature of the
industries we're talking about.

In the situations we're talking about of course the trade unions are going to be weak.In the end you want to create a situation where workers are able to form their own unions.If you don't do that then you'll never get at the problem of exploitation and abuse. Codes of conduct/independent monitoring will become a way not only of good company public relations, but also a way for companies to avoid trade unions.

Mi-kyung: Case study on monitoring in China and Vietnam.China is a difficult place to have monitoring, had same problems w/fact-finding. Hard to improve working conditions in China. Had a consultation with trade unions and NGOs to assess the role of each. Ex.of how we have to develop the local network.

At the beginning of the fact-finding we had no communication w/the trade unions, difficult. Also a problem because of IMF program in Korea. Actu--official trade union in china--hard to connect.We interviewed 50 workers (regarding codes of conduct?). Actu doesn't want to discuss problems in workplace with outsiders (non-Chinese).
We invited people from China (2 from actu, 2 from labor department).
They were interested in participating in a seminar to hear about our fact-finding, what we're doing.They said they'd pay everything themselves. Korean embassy refused to give them a visa. Trade union in S. Korea suggested we have a training for trade unions in China,
This is happening now. Meanwhile, NGO is having negotiations w/the company,trying to influence them regarding cultural conflict and working conditions.We put strong demand to the company to accept the codes of conduct.

Challenge to local network: globalisation is giving a big challenge to the south, challenge to unify the different organization, w/o the unified power we cannot overcome.The Clean Clothes Campaign idea to have a consultation with all Clean Clothes Campaign in producer countries.Start with one or two organizations to follow-up on initiatives common monitoring on local level. People can submit their common report to the government or national organization

Cia: Yellow union in China, the government knows that their work is useless, it's not the trade union's that control the working conditions. Therefore there are other organizations they have that do this.If you do monitoring in china then it's important to work with this government entity that is not the trade unions. Military (?) is one of these entities. At the local level it's the labor office.These organizations at the local level are supposed to deal with worker's rights. In every town there's a committee for the reconciliation of workers and managers.There officially. If workers have issues they can contact those committees.It's a very specific Chinese situation that these organizations exist and not trade unions.The Chinese government itself is very bureaucratic, but at the local level these organizations do have honest, trustworthy people.

If you are to put in a monitoring network in China you can do it in three steps:
First step you could cooperate w/the organizations of Chinese refugees in Europe and North America.These organizations still have a lot of contact with China and lots of information.
Second step would be to cooperate with the Chinese humanitarian NGOs / social NGOs in Hong Kong.It would be great if CCC would have more contact with groups in Hong Kong.
After you have contacted the Chinese organizations abroad and you have contact w/ organizations in Hong Kong you might be able to set up a system with these groups and the labor dept. You might have an efficient group. You should try to contact the people at the local level of these institutions because they are very angry about the companies who exploit workers, in Hong Kong and Taiwan, these people are also bureaucratic, but at the local level
you must beware of seeing only extreme images of China.There are specific ways of dealing.

Vivian: I think that the labor groups in Hong Kong the input from them for the independent monitoring of Chinese labor is important, but they couldn't explain why this is important.If organizations don't join the independent monitoring body, could they join it as individuals? just started talking about this.

Phil: Two ways to look at the involvement of NGOs and trade unions--First, no one knows exactly what should make up these systems of independent monitoring. We should be involved in deciding. Next question is should they be involved in doing the monitoring for the two years?

What are each of our responsibilities for the next 2 years, given our different roles? (Burns)

Thierry (?) (Oxfam solidarity): role of international NGOs is to support the work of local trade unions and NGOs.When we talk about role of trade unions (local) they have very different
priorities.Their first aim is to strengthen their own organisation and increase membership.
For the Clean Clothes Campaign the priority is independent monitoring.The strategy of strengthening local trade unions. We have to respect these different agendas. Independent monitoring might be a tool.

Janneke van Eijk (CCC A'dam): As the CCC we are not entirely focused on independent monitoring.We have also said it is a tool, not an aim. We started doing actions in solidarity with workers in Asia.We are not an organization that promotes independent monitoring as a solution, just a tool. Of course local groups have different agendas.Monitoring and organizing trade unions sometimes at odds--as Yannick explained.I want to hear from people in the south what role they envision for themselves in this, if there is one.

Aloysius: Independent monitoring standardized model you propose might not be possible
overnight. We can start w/local immediate needs. In our case we can start w/ the elimination of child labor. Local NGOs have experience of working at grassroots level, but sometimes find it hard to organize trainings, etc. maybe international NGOs can extend solidarity to help increase capacity. Local monitoring group could be structured so that they could generate some income
subscriptions?

Freddy Mpofu (NUCI//Zimbabwe): Roles played by different people. CCC should continue campaigning and identifying problems where there are problems at this time the trade unions are involved in monitoring in some factories, it's enshrined in the labor act.Won't work out for campaigns to go in and monitor, publicize info, go back in--won't work. Legislation varies from country to country. Code can be brought in if something is lacking in the labor law
local people in a better position to monitor codes of conduct. It would be much easier for complaints to be filed at the local level. Problem w/ compliance.You'll see non-compliance with many companies.We're looking at some areas for boycotts and demonstrations
talk to SOCAM to see what they've been doing, how they've been doing it.

Frieda de Koninck (CCC/Flemish-speaking Belgium): Initially wanted to invite someone from SOCAM and/or C&A, this didn't work out, Belgian rep of C&A will set up meeting w/Chinese inspector.

Ineke: Redirect question to Phil, since C&A is in ETI, that's why they said that they couldn't participate in the forum, because they said they're already in ETI.

Phil: What we're hearing is that they said they won't participate in a pilot because they have a conflict w/ the CCC.

Judy (CEP): Re: Capacity building w/ NGOs--In addition to seeking input on our SA 8000 and the guidance document, we're trying to develop auditor training programs.Create a scholarships for people to do this.ISO people/management types involved, interesting group.Trying to identify which southern NGOs would be interested trying to figure out how we respond to requests for capacity building from southern NGOs.

What needs to be addressed in the next two years? (Burns)

Aloysius: Preparations of understanding at local level, establishing bylaws (codes), need training, then get into negotiations w/ the corporations/buyers, after negotiations and the team is formed, consultants and inspectors, labeling or certificates--figure out how that system should evolve, networking with groups in U.S. and Europe, campaigning, lobbying with importers, with media and with government, trade unions.

On the issue of child labor: case of child laborers pushed out of factories and then don't know what to do (Bangladesh)--have to work out a package (school, skill training) that deals with the welfare of the children.

Licensing a number of manufacturers, return number of children to school, number of adults to industry, collaborating with local groups (means enormous training & capacity bldg). Meanwhile, it's difficult to find local support, therefore I expect the international groups here to work with us, maybe we can develop a system where I submit a project.
Expansion of certification of industries.

Freddy: In Zimbabwe at the moment we have not started anything. Just started monitoring a few places at the request of the CCC and some other groups, we have a lot of work ahead of us
we make evening meetings w/shop stewards, that's where we can do some of this education on campaigning. When it comes to the issue of monitoring we are prepared. Every worker is aware of ILO standards, can go to our offices. I don't see any resistance, it's part of their interest as workers.
Networking in Zimbabwe--currently communications is a big problem--we (the trade unions) have no fax or email. We are prepared to take steps to do this work, whether rightly or wrongly, will be corrected.

Ros-B Guzman (IBON Resource Center/Philipines): What is the role of NGOs in independent monitoring networks? First of all IBON got involved in the CCC on a contractual basis-- i.e. tell us what garment, what style, we do the research.I think that is the nature of a network--contractual--a network is not an organization. Outside the framework of consumer actions of the north, research on garments--basis of the international solidarity.We realized that the unions became the resource centers as we did this research, but we found that only 3% of garment production is unionized, most takes place in the houses. As IBON went back to the unions and told them where the houses were so they could go and organize.We do research and we feed back the information to unions for empowerment.The role of the NGO is (1) to forge solidarity--to link the workers with the consumer in the south and (2) to empower the worker.

Discussion:

Peter Pennartz (IRENE/Netherlands): IRENE and Hong Kong Industrial Committee and AMRC have decided to produce a workers sportswear newsletter, to contain very concrete info on workers rights, working conditions, the subcontractors and the TNCs, and also about the campaigns in the North. It should be easy to read, geared toward workers needs.We decided to focus on four countries: China, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam.Translated into the four languages. In the next few months we want to produce a few issues.Would like to get your input. Goes toward fulfilling needs on education and capacity building

Yannick: Maybe it would be a good idea to have some kind of investigation, make contact, start w/countries that are here, investigation into what's going on with labor organizations, trade unions and NGOs.I differentiate between labor organizations and trade unions.So you have some sense of what the reality of these countries, a collaboration could start you have to go to the country there and talk to the people there to see how you could get involved in independent monitoring.In many countries independent monitoring and codes of conduct is high tech stuff, not bread and butter. Since it's a concept that's coming from very developed countries that have a history of trade unions and democracy, etc. it's very difficult for people to comprehend.So if you find organizations that are interested and understand the need. Remember: it's a small sector of the population that's involved, this relates only to the sector that's developed under capitalism, there's still a lot that's under feudalism (peasants). Have to stress informing people--it takes a little time to get the information through people's head, long process, especially in a country where it's 85% illiterate.Organizations working w/ the workers need tools to do this.

Frieda: What sort of tool in Haiti context?

Yannick: Radio. There's a problem though because we have black outs. Also cartoons.

Ineke: Committee for Asian Women is making cartoons.

Yannick: Have to understand it's a process where you go from simple to complex.

Ineke: Same w/ consumers here

Yannick: Define together the criteria

Frieda: Who, which groups?

Yannick: Solidarity groups

Frieda: Your organization? CCC?

Yannick: No--first you have to investigate, I can't tell you.

Frieda: In each country? national organization has to link?

Yannick: Yes, sometimes political divisions

Frieda: Are you suggesting that similar to the national CCC platforms there could be national coordination?

Yannick: Not saying that, don't know. North/South dialogue to decide how capacity building will proceed.

Anneke (IRENE/Netherlands): Re: Euro campaigns: You have to prioritize the campaigning work, of course you have to figure out how to do the monitoring.There's a real tension in the cooperation between trade unions, NGOs and companies. It's right when trade unions ask: who are the NGOs representing? Agree that local organizations needs are the priority,
must have organizations that reach out to the workers involved.Doing the research, take care that the workers themselves are involved.

Thierry: Weekly radio show in Honduras, the NGO that has taken on the issue of independent monitoring, basically the woman takes calls from women working in the maquilas, there's not much exchange between the women working in the different maquilas. It's the cheapest thing you can do.There is an independent monitoring program run by the ILO in Bangladesh, being touted as a model, they will do it in Pakistan, maybe Bangladeshi guests can comment on this?

Amin: There was a treaty between ILO and employers in the garment sector about how child labor could be eliminated in the sector, flaw from the beginning: the local trade unions were not involved. So from the start we were in disagreement, we think it's incorrect that the trade unions are not involved.

Before the agreement, the government report on the extent of child labor in the sector said that there are 50,000 kids employed, according to NGOs the figure was 100,000.Even with the government figure it's startling to compare it with the number of children covered by the agreement: only 8,000 the rest 42,000 were just removed from the factory and ended up in informal sector work. What happened in fact, the children have just been displaced from one sector to another.In many cases these children have ended up in heavier (rickshaw) or more hazardous (stone breaking) work. Although the official position is that no kids are employed in the garment sector there are still many kids who are employed in subcontracting units.

Mi-kyung: Next two years: I think we can discuss the process of monitoring w/ participants from the south, organize evaluation meetings once a year, in the north or the south, when we go back home we should organize a small committee to work on the monitoring structure in the south, the activities shouldn't only be talking about the working conditions but advancing
the ideas on independent monitoring.

Ingeborg: In our endeavors to advance our cooperation on working conditions, going to do research, now a delegation, across Euro CCCs I think we need to enforce the networking the monitoring issue, to learn about the doubts, etc. how can we organize that so that we learn and have an exchange, think your idea is a good one.

Claudia: With focus on independent monitoring: I feel like we're leaving the political
struggle on the side, also something that we should keep in mind over the next two years.

Participant from Belgian consumers union: There's so much information--people feel lost, many of the consumers don't care and don't believe that codes of conduct will do anything need to touch the people in a way that they don't expect it, like Yannick's explanation, should talk to the media

Frieda: Emelia's comments struck me this morning, about comparing prices of products vs. wages as a means of education in the north, but also in the south this is useful, but this kind of information is very difficult to get.

Dwight: We have to use the next 2 years to see if credible independent monitoring can take
place. So far few examples of independent monitoring, and less that are credible.Just like the code was a substitute for law, the independent monitoring becomes a substitute for enforcement of the law. I get nervous when I hear NGOs talking about issuing labels. Have to check out professional approaches. ex. Sialkot/footballs: ILO/UNICEF trying to ensure prohibition on child labor.They try to do some things on monitoring, paying monitors, don't inform them until the day before they visit a place where they'll be going, need to look at these things to try to figure out what a credible program is during the next two years we also have to continue to create the space to do this, meaning that we have to keep the pressure on companies. Re: capacity building: (tells stone soup story) -- yes, we'll do the job for you, if you do this and this. Beyond a certain level of capacity building we have to see if there's ultimately another way to do this. People in the south need empowerment. NGOs shouldn't interfere with rights of workers. Remember: credibility

Mikyung: Do you think it's possible for the ICFTU to provide training, share experience, create space? for campaigns, monitoring committee?

Dwight: We're challenged by the issue too, new for everyone, started in 92 with the Levi code, if we're going to have monitoring we have to distinguish between implementation, monitoring,
verification. We've gone further down the road, but we're still at the beginning of the road.
There's got to be professionals, standards of behavior, for those who look at working conditions.There's got to be a reason people think it's reliable.The reason we started with independent monitoring is because the companies couldn't be trusted. Rule-based to make things credible,whether we're talking about NGOs, companies or SGS's we need to establish rules on what a good report includes.

Ineke: I think the question is if in the two years we need more information, can the union provide us with the information?

Dwight: We're certainly getting more involved, to the extent that affiliates start asking for assistance in that way we're going to start going in that direction

Anneke: They have to ask for it first

Neil Kearney: In our sector our limited experience w/ independent monitoring is negative.
Our central American affiliates overwhelmingly rejected independent monitoring, came
close to rejecting codes of conduct completely. NGOs have gone into factories to do independent monitoring w/ limited monitoring and quickly became consultants. (cites example of Honduras, previously mentioned). Have to be careful that independent monitoring doesn't become an obstacle to organizing workers.Ultimately trade unions and NGOs do not organize workers, workers have to do it themselves, if they don't come together collectively...
Not the job of trade unions to monitor codes of conduct, job of NGOs to bring problems out to public. API is hampered by the idea that if it's dragged out the pressure will fall off the companies. Not a single company has adopted a code without pressure: they're dragged kicking and screaming. The role of NGOs and unions in the process is to be engaged in the preliminary work of the auditors, to help them understand what the issues are in a locality, that way interested groups would have access in the beginning and in the end, but wouldn't be compromised.

Evert de Boer,(Phillipine Resource Centre/Netherlands CCC) : I think what we're talking about, codes of conduct is not an aim, it's a means. We have to go through more of these experiences, such as the ones you experience. We're not talking about NGOs and trade unions being contracted to companies to do monitoring. We're talking, getting strong, continuing pressure.Exactly what we did today was to discuss doing that verification at the local level, discussed it with the people from the south here today.

Participant from consumer organization: We often hear that unions say something, NGOs feel guilty, ex. ICFTU I read something and I say, this won't do: about the MAI, didn't say things to the public, thankfully we had the NGOs to say something. You have to admit that we're useful.

German participant: Re: investigation process in the south. I think for the next two years it would be good if the Clean Clothes Campaign could finance the southern groups to get together, they do some thinking, they should give input, they should give criteria, ideas on how we can strengthen the southern network.

Ineke: This was discussed extensively one year ago with the AMRC because most of the CCC research has been done in Asia, they decided it was better to get together first on the local level
rather then moving on to the regional level, it's easier for southern groups to get funding then for us, so they don't need us for that. I agree with you, but it's not our style as a network to finance, can act as an intermediary.Would like to hear reactions to Mi-kyung's proposal.

Ros-B: Re proposal--would also like to pursue a research network, not for the next two years, suddenly I'm doubtful whether or not we can pursue that proposal, I'm hearing from other southern countries that there are limitations on communications--phone, email. Vivian
and I talking earlier, that's networking. Just wondering how we, other southern participants, can build up this network.

Yannick: Because we're talking about the next 2 years, I can't let myself not think about political/ideology, when you're in a transition situation you don't know what's going to happen in the next two years. (With reference to Houtart's comment at the end of the International Forum on Clean Clothes: are we trying to reform capitalism?) I ask myself--do I want to be involved in this? the workers don't want this system.
(Referring to Emelia's strong reaction during the morning session regarding how she felt to discover in Brussels the expensive retail price of the products produced in Indonesian factory where she is employed). Feeling that your own people sold you to other people, it makes you angry. You don't want to think about having this system for two more years. People in the south--we're always yearning for change.We are probably yearning for a radical break, that's our dreams. You have to understand that when you talk about the next two years

Mikyung: 1996 committee on Korean monitoring (?)
when we got an idea on the case we are aware, we address the direction of the society this is an idea to develop a structure on the national level
also: I appeal to Euro NGOs--local groups
give information on working conditions to the campaigns
but local NGOs have to take next step (?)

Dwight: ETI: idea was if you have the company in a pilot program, you could find out what the best NGOs are, by doing you discover who it's possible to work with

Final Summary (Janneke van Eijk):

We spoke a lot about local level networks: We need cooperation between trade unions and NGOs in producer countries.This immediately raises lots of questions: yellow unions, no unions, NGOs started by companies such as C&A -- should they be accepted as NGOs?

We spoke about the role of local level networks and organizations in independent monitoring.
We agreed that it's the task of local level organizations to organize workers not monitoring, these tasks can be complementary but they're not the same.

Credibility--workers will not trust organizations too close to companies, also will not trust monitors.

Training--would be helpful at the local level, to overcome the differences between monitoring and organizing (which should be complementary, not compete); should not come from a northern perspective.

Complaints procedure: if complaints aren't made to local groups, you'll never receive a single complaint, we are dependent on local groups for this.

Barriers that hinder the process:
* lack of means of communication
* other priorities of an organization
* credibility

Capacity building, training and tools to communicate are needed to overcome this--we'll need research projects and pilot projects and have to evaluate them very very carefully.

I have the feeling that this is no longer a north-south contradiction (ex. Yannick says one thing, Freddy another and Mi-kyung another)--it's not the north doing this and the south doing that, it's much more complicated. In a way it's a positive thing, we can overcome these contradictions.